Curse

MisterB · May 31, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

It isn't automated, as you are still there, holding down the key.

-snip-

Rigging a key to repeat based on user input is the same as binding a key, and taking advantage of repeat input. This isn't a gray area if you look at it from that perspective.

I only care about whether ANet or NCSoft considers it a violation. Speculation from anyone else, including me, is meaningless. Rapid fire is not why I sent them the email. I have another issue entirely.

There is actually a bug that can cause you to disconnect if you use salvage kits or ID kits too fast. It's possible that using other consumables may trigger it as well.

Trub · May 31, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

Somwhat off the current discussion, but I take it I'm not the only person about to have an aneurysm from all the QQ threads of botters that got banned and make themselves the victims and/or somehow try to make it Anet's fault?

I just needed to vent this...

I feel your pain.
Empathy, compassion, example,and facts... all these things don't work against a determined QQ addict.

Makes one want to toss Ritalin into the masses.

Ka Tet · May 31, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

They wanted something for nothing. They felt that cheating was ok, because the game was too grindy, or too stale, or boring, or or or. Those are what we call excuses.

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

The questions to ask yourself are these:

Is this manipulating packets, or using exploitative dll injection that gives me an unfair advantage over other players?
Am I leaving my computer for any period of time, and the game is continuing to play without my input?
Am I pressing a single button, and multiple forms of input are being performed on a very specific timed basis?

If the answer to any of these is yes, it is almost certainly botting.

After that, ask yourself these questions:

Is this saving me any time compared to manual input?
Is this something others don't have access to?
Is this something that violates any language in the ToS/EULA?

If the answer to those is no, it's no botting in all likelihood. If the answer to those is yes, you might want to think twice about using it.

Some of you claim that a G11/G15 key map + repeat macro is giving me an unfair advantage. It doesn't fit any of the above criteria, as I could click my mouse at the same speed (my finger would suffer, as would my mouse from being bashed so much) I like my finger, thanks

I can click very fast

The drunkard bot is a different story entirely. That bot/macro is timed over a very long period to click alcohol, since it is based on minutes, not total alcohol consumed. That means the user isn't providing input, ergo, a botting. That's an unfair advantage over someone who has to do it manually (which is VERY time consuming at 10k minutes)

cormac ap dunn · May 31, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

They wanted something for nothing. They felt that cheating was ok, because the game was too grindy, or too stale, or boring, or or or. Those are what we call excuses.

QFT Sadly most of what we are seeing is excuses. I do believe that innocent people may have been swept up in this, but the reaction of the innocent is seldom what we are seeing.

Ka Tet · May 31, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

The questions to ask yourself are these:

Is this manipulating packets, or using exploitative dll injection that gives me an unfair advantage over other players?
Am I leaving my computer for any period of time, and the game is continuing to play without my input?
Am I pressing a single button, and multiple forms of input are being performed on a very specific timed basis?

If the answer to any of these is yes, it is almost certainly botting.

After that, ask yourself these questions:

Is this saving me any time compared to manual input?
Is this something others don't have access to?
Is this something that violates any language in the ToS/EULA?

If the answer to those is no, it's no botting in all likelihood. If the answer to those is yes, you might want to think twice about using it.

Some of you claim that a G11/G15 key map + repeat macro is giving me an unfair advantage. It doesn't fit any of the above criteria, as I could click my mouse at the same speed (my finger would suffer, as would my mouse from being bashed so much) I like my finger, thanks

I can click very fast

The drunkard bot is a different story entirely. That bot/macro is timed over a very long period to click alcohol, since it is based on minutes, not total alcohol consumed. That means the user isn't providing input, ergo, a botting. That's an unfair advantage over someone who has to do it manually (which is VERY time consuming at 10k minutes)

Yet again, someone saying cheaters shouldn't be banned.

If you cheat in a university course, you are given an automatic F, and typically, expelled from the university. Cheating is unfair, it's wrong, and it's evil.

If you cheat, you should be perma banned, PERIOD. There really is no middle ground here. I agree that RMT bots should also be banned, as should exploiters, permanently.

Those who were banned (excluding any bans that were truly a mistake) deserved to be perma banned. Again, they should have been MAC/IP banned, but apparently ANET isn't quite as harsh as most of us would like them to be.

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Yet again, someone saying cheaters shouldn't be banned.

If you cheat in a university course, you are given an automatic F, and typically, expelled from the university. Cheating is unfair, it's wrong, and it's evil.

If you cheat, you should be perma banned, PERIOD. There really is no middle ground here. I agree that RMT bots should also be banned, as should exploiters, permanently.

Those who were banned (excluding any bans that were truly a mistake) deserved to be perma banned. Again, they should have been MAC/IP banned, but apparently ANET isn't quite as harsh as most of us would like them to be.

Let me shut you down right now... because at this point, you are drawing straws searching for the short one, in hopes of portraying me as a hypocrite. I'm not. I read what ANET says, and act accordingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to this. It has indeed been a long while! What I did was present to the Live Team my thoughts on the matter, asking them for approval, modification, or rejection of the statements. Fortunately for all of us, they've approved the following:

* PvE Gamplay: As long as you are at your computer and are actively playing the game, we’re ok with what you’re doing. As soon as the game plays itself – as soon as you can walk away and the computer continues to play – you’re in breach of the Rules of Conduct and you are subject to account sanctions, which can involve an account suspension or an account termination.

* PvP Gameplay: The use of macros that give an advantage in competitive play is strictly prohibited and if it is reported and/or detected, we will research the activity and take the appropriate action on the account, which can affect both tournament eligibility and the account holder’s ability to continue to play Guild Wars, either with a temporary suspension or an account termination.

I hope that answers the questions that you have. I'm not able to give detailed responses to the various scenarios or systems or programs, but I think the information provided should enable you to figure out the official position in the various usages that were initially mentioned. -- Gaile 21:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Argue with Gaile, I'm done. ANET has spoken, and what is allowed is as follows:

TexMod
KSMod
FRAPS
G11/G15 macros that do not automate gameplay.
G15 Applets
Multilaunch tool (GWx2)
GWStats

The rest are currently restricted, and you will be banned if you use them.

Note, the above mods can only be used in their ORIGINAL FORM.

In short, binding a key isn't cheating in any game, ever. Keyboard binding is a very common practice, and is the basis for how those gamepads function. You lose.

Mangione · May 31, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I find it funny how some of the "bot-defence-team" just disappear for a while after you show them the flaw in their logic, only to reappear after several posts and reiterate their flawed arguments, completely ignoring all the rest.

Blinded by the Tears. QQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Some of you claim that a G11/G15 key map + repeat macro is giving me an unfair advantage. It doesn't fit any of the above criteria, as I could click my mouse at the same speed (my finger would suffer, as would my mouse from being bashed so much) I like my finger, thanks

I can click very fast

This.

The argument is reaching levels of ridicule that I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes out and says that my friend that plays on a laptop is a cheater just because he is using his touchpad instead of a mouse (you double click by tapping the surface of the pad and is much less strain on the fingers than a mouse).

@tha walking dude:
Stop being childish.

Ka Tet · May 31, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

@tha walking dude:
Stop being childish.

I'm just making a point. Don't flame me bro.

Tarkin · Jun 01, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

What Dhumm was singing while swinging the scythe.

Don't think sorry is easily accept
Don't try turning tables instead
You've taken lots of chances before
But I am not gonna give any more, don't ask me
That's how it goes, 'cause part of me knows what you're thinking...
Don't say words you're gonna regret
Don't let the fire rush to your head
I've heard the accusation before
And I ain't gonna take any more, believe me
The sun in your eyes, made some of the lies worth believing
I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules, dealing with fools, I can cheat you blind
And i don't need to see any more to know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
Don't leave false illusions behind
Don't cry 'cause I ain't changing my mind
So find another fool like before
Cause I ain't gonna live anymore believing
Some of the lies while all of the signs are deceiving
I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules, dealing with fools, I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see any more to know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
I can read your mind, I can read your mind

Lord Sojar · Jun 01, 2010, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

I'm just making a point. Don't flame me bro.

Your point was invalidated by Gaile herself, the voice of ANET support. So... do you have another one? You attempted to turn me into a hypocrite, and failed miserably at that, yet you didn't apologize. I see no reason to issue you any respect or decency at this point, apart from my obligation as a moderator to lead by example. That said, I'm not going to bash you further, but the fact remains, you were dead wrong in trying to attack me, and somehow make yourself more pious.

This campaign won't work my botting friends. But, I do thank you guys from the bottom of my heart, this is a wonderful dose of schadenfreude. Thank you, really. You have brightened up my year with your hypocrisy and inane explanations and excuses. Unfortunately, it's over and done with, and you are welcome to return to the game should you choose, but not with the spoils earned by you via cheating. Simple solution, simple end, and we oh do so like simple don't we?

In the words of the Asura: Brains over brawn.

MArcSinus · Jun 01, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Hmm this is an interesting discussion, the best examples of these macro's/autoclick options being discussed here would be the sweet/party/drunkard titles.

I think 2 things are relevant here:

1. When is using this kind of auto-click a bot, or is it even a bot?
2. Does this give the user an unfair advantage over other players?

My take on the first point: macro's, autoclickers are software (yes even the keyboard thingies) that automate a (human) task, which is the definition of a bot by no coincidence.
When you are afk doing something fun in real life, I think you will all agree that this is botting.
However look at the case where you are indeed playing the game, doing stuff, and your little software friend does some clicking for you.
Is it still regarded a bot then? Sounds more like a program that helps you, like textmod, then a program that does everything for you to me.
Besides what's the difference anyway, make this software click for you or set a clock to peep every 3 minutes or hurt your fingers by clicking like a madman.

Okey I admit, not really convincing arguments, but let's look at the second important (to Anet) issue: does the use of this software give me an unfair advantage over other players?
Because Anet seems to use this statement to define botting and/or ban people. Let's say I bought the titles I mentioned above, they go by 1,5 mil ea now I believe.
Haven't I not done enough then? I saved up that much money to literally turn it into dust. I have absolutely nothing to gain, ingame, form gaining these titles.
Maybe some gw2 rewards but we still don't know anything about that so don't go that way please, besides that's not even the issue, the issue is TIME.
It saves you time, now does this give you an advantage over others? Most people would say yes: "you can make money bla bla in that time!"
However those people tend to forget Guild Wars in an MMORPG, players benefit from other players! Players benefit from me selling and farming stuff, being able to help guildies with dungeons, not from standing in my guild hall drunk or banging my finger off in kama ae1!

So to sum up things, using this kind of clicking software is, strictly taken, botting. However if you aren't afk and actually doing stuff the world benefits from it and vice versa. No ofcourse some arguments you gonna trow at me: "you cant check if someone is afk!" I guess that's true to some extent. "You can also just drink/use sweets while playing!" Also true, but that isn't the issue here. Besides people are people, they want to max the titles as quick as possible.

Martin Alvito · Jun 01, 2010, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

If you cheat in a university course, you are given an automatic F, and typically, expelled from the university.

That just isn't so. Cheating isn't that black and white. In the course of graduate school, I've caught quite a few undergraduates cheating. The response varies by professor and offense.

Hell, sometimes the university I am at (you've heard of it) lets people cheat. Students that can demonstrate a learning disability can get untimed exams proctored by employees of the university.

Let's set aside whether or not Rahja was botting (he wasn't) for a moment. The argument you're making that cheating => perma-ban is absurd. It depends on the circumstances, and punishment should fit the crime. What you seem to be missing is that THIS instance of cheating merited permabans where lesser offenses might not. The magnitude of the advantage matters. I'd have a hard time supporting permabans for the drunkard bot, even though it's a major pain to have to click the booze (still at 6000 minutes myself).

But substantial PvP advantages and fully automated play are like flagrant plagiarism. If it's obvious that you knew what you were doing was wrong, and did it anyway, then you should be gone.

Lord Sojar · Jun 01, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That just isn't so. Cheating isn't that black and white. In the course of graduate school, I've caught quite a few undergraduates cheating. The response varies by professor and offense.

Hell, sometimes the university I am at (you've heard of it) lets people cheat. Students that can demonstrate a learning disability can get untimed exams proctored by employees of the university.

Let's set aside whether or not Rahja was botting (he wasn't) for a moment. The argument you're making that cheating => perma-ban is absurd. It depends on the circumstances, and punishment should fit the crime. What you seem to be missing is that THIS instance of cheating merited permabans where lesser offenses might not. The magnitude of the advantage matters. I'd have a hard time supporting permabans for the drunkard bot, even though it's a major pain to have to click the booze (still at 6000 minutes myself).

But substantial PvP advantages and fully automated play are like flagrant plagiarism. If it's obvious that you knew what you were doing was wrong, and did it anyway, then you should be gone.

Indeed, I agree almost entirely with your post. However, the drunkard bot would be deserving of a perma ban in my honest opinion, as it allowed you to walk away and have the game continue to play for you, giving you an advantage over me, honest Joe, trying to play and achieve the title during my time spent actually playing the game. That's automation, and grounds for account termination.

Off topic: You allow cheating in classes you TA (or the professor of said class allows it/puts up with it)? I've caught one of my students cheating, and they were given an automatic F in the class, and forwarded to the Dean of Students for academic dishonesty; I don't know the outcome of that, but it can easily result in being forced to take all W's in the remaining classes, with no refund, or being permanently expelled from the university.

Gennadios · Jun 01, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Re. the drunkard title. I don't know a single person of the ones that have it done that didn't macro their way through it. Some set up excel scripts, some used used gaming keyboards, some repurposed the very many clickers that are floating around the internet.

6 days, 22 hours, and 40 minutes of clicking every 3 ******* minutes is too much to ask for. Getting the cash for those titles should be the only challenge that ANet should expect players to overcome legitimately.

PuppyEater · Jun 01, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

Re. the drunkard title. I don't know a single person of the ones that have it done that didn't macro their way through it.

So it's ok then?

I might as well walk out of best buy with a tv in my hands because I don't know a single person who hasn't stolen, something, at some point in their lives and those things are just so damn expensive...

ZainAhmed · Jun 01, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

LOL The Simpsons Movie! LOLOLOL

Uh.... but back on topic. I actually did macro a rapid fire button for my sweet tooth title, come to think of it. I was there, hitting the button every 5 seconds or so, but it was triggering my mouse to click (so I take back my previous statement about not knowing the G15 did mouse macroing) I did this in Marhan's Grotto, and it only saved my finger. The point is, I was still there, giving input to the game, so that isn't botting. Botting is defined, again, as leaving the computer completely, and it continues to give the game extended input with no physical interaction from the user, or a program automatically creates game input based on circumstance (a true bot).

Very interesting.

I used an interrupt bot(pvp/RA) if anyone doesn't know by know that allowed me to actually use my others skills and actually use my brain to come close to people and use my other skills freely but when it detected a skill, that was to be rupted, is about to cast it would immediately rupt. Skills like PnH etc etc.

So I was still playing and giving input but at specific points the bot would take over for like a fraction of a second then back to me...something like that...i hope you get the idea.
So is that a true bot? or a really nasty bot to use?
I got perma ban for using this bot for 3-4 days randomly if I felt like and it was to gain nothing really.

Still in contact with NCsoft/Anet to get it back but no luck so far.

Gennadios · Jun 01, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuppyEater

So it's ok then?

I would argue that anything is OK is as long as one still has their account intact.

The purpose of my post wasn't to justify macroing, but to point out the ludicrous requirements of that one particular little.

If you value your time so lightly that you're content to do nothing but click on the same pixels every 3 minutes, so be it, but it's not something most mentally intact players are willing to do.

My point was that ANet needs to do something about that one title, the ban list for players caught exploiting drunkard would number well over 3.7k accounts, and and the player base would be nowhere near as elated as they were for this round of terminations.

MArcSinus · Jun 01, 2010, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZainAhmed

Very interesting.

I used an interrupt bot(pvp/RA) if anyone doesn't know by know that allowed me to actually use my others skills and actually use my brain to come close to people and use my other skills freely but when it detected a skill, that was to be rupted, is about to cast it would immediately rupt. Skills like PnH etc etc.

So I was still playing and giving input but at specific points the bot would take over for like a fraction of a second then back to me...something like that...i hope you get the idea.
So is that a true bot? or a really nasty bot to use?
I got perma ban for using this bot for 3-4 days randomly if I felt like and it was to gain nothing really.

Still in contact with NCsoft/Anet to get it back but no luck so far.

Sounds like a program that gave you quite a big advantage to me...
Besides why use something like that? You still play the whole time and there is nothing more satisfying as an interrupt

Lord Sojar · Jun 01, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZainAhmed

Very interesting.

I used an interrupt bot(pvp/RA) if anyone doesn't know by know that allowed me to actually use my others skills and actually use my brain to come close to people and use my other skills freely but when it detected a skill, that was to be rupted, is about to cast it would immediately rupt. Skills like PnH etc etc.

So I was still playing and giving input but at specific points the bot would take over for like a fraction of a second then back to me...something like that...i hope you get the idea.
So is that a true bot? or a really nasty bot to use?
I got perma ban for using this bot for 3-4 days randomly if I felt like and it was to gain nothing really.

Still in contact with NCsoft/Anet to get it back but no luck so far.

No, that's what we call cheating. LOL. You were using a bot to augment your abilities in competitive PvP... This was giving you an enormous advantage over other players! Why am I even explaining this? This is like the definition of cheating! You won't get your account back, you cheated.